CIAT: 0:03

Welcome to Where it's AT- the Architectural Technology podcast from CIAT that uses technology, to talk Architectural Technology for Technologists. The Student Award for Excellence in Architectural Technology Project in 2017 was won by Edward Kercher -

AT Awards Event Audio: 0:26

"So winning The Award for Excellence is amazing. It's the best thing. It means a lot because I spent a lot of time during university - sort of - getting the project going. Yeah, I would 100% recommend doing it. It's just great."

CIAT: 0:36

Since then, Ed has had a big impact on the profession, first working for Adam Architecture and now running his own successful businesses. Past President, Alex Naraian was there at various stages of his career as a friend and mentor. Here they reunite after many years, revisiting their overlapping journeys and how their shared values and a passion for Architectural Technology have influenced their approach to work and their businesses.

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 1:03

I think this is just a really nice catch up to be honest, Alex. It's been a while, right?

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 1:07

It's been far, far too long -

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 1:09

Exactly. I was trying to think how long it actually had been since we'd last seen each other, and I can't put my finger on it -

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 1:14

It would be pre-COVID -

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 1:16

Yeah-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 1:16

for sure, yeah. So

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 1:17

So a while back, I know when it was -

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 1:20

Go for it -

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 1:20

Adam Architecture . . . around Christmas time. They'd gone for some drinks at The King Alfred in Winchester and you popped along. Yeah, yeah, that is definitely the last time I saw you. Yeah.

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 1:31

Yes, that may well have been late 2018.

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 1:35

Yes, my first memory of you was at Solent University, where I did Architectural Technology, and you were doing a 60 second pitch, in a very nice suit. I've got a very vivid memory of you there. I remember thinking you did a very good pitch. Do you remember that?

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 1:49

I do remember that 60 second pitch, and anybody that knows me, will know that was a quite a difficult thing for me to achieve - a pitch within 60 seconds, because I do enjoy a good old chat and chin wag. But yeah, I do remember that, it was quite an exciting thing to be doing rather than it being, just coming in and giving a lecture. I believe you were in your first year, weren't you?

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 2:09

That's right,

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 2:10

I remember you at Solent, but I particularly remember you when I was at a event - I think - was down at The Stadium.

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 2:17

Yes -

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 2:18

You were serving there weren't you? It was your part-time job.

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 2:21

I was working on the kind of hot dog stand, then serving beers to the to the fans. Also did a bit of silver service waitering, but that was all in between, you know, Architectural Technology at Solent University. Yeah, it's funny you remember that actually

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 2:33

I do. I do and I slipped you my card at that point, because I remember you from university, and thought that guy is pretty good, and maybe we can get him in front of us for an interview and see how we go from there. That's really, that's the biggest memory I have with you at that point. I do remember you at university, and I remember keeping an eye on on you and your work was really good, and you were quite a vocal person, not as in gobby, but knew what you wanted to do. I think- that really came across to me-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 3:00

That's really nice thank you.

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 3:02

And were quite focused.

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 3:03

Whilst I was at Solent University - like - what was it that you noticed in me that made you think - you know - it was worth, firstly giving me your business card, and then ultimately coming for an interview at Adam Architecture, where, where you were at that time.

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 3:17

It was a few things, actually, because I was - and I am still good friends with the course leaders there - I would often chat with them about general performance of the students between my visits. And at that time, I was going into Solent University quite regularly, about every six weeks from recollect, and working with 2nd Years - you were a 2nd year at the time, of course,

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 3:36

Yep-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 3:37

And we were doing a live brief, which was quite interesting. It really stretched all the students of the 2nd year but the great thing about a live brief was, I took a project that I'd run when I was at Adam Architecture-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 3:48

that's right, yeah-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 3:49

which was a mixed project. It was res. . . not residential, it was commercial and retail, wasn't it?

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 3:55

It was, yeah-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 3:56

you had the same brief when it came to space planning and storey heights that we had as a Practice at the time.

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 4:03

Yeah-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 4:04

but you weren't constrained by architectural style, you just had to make those spaces work and collaborate with . . . across various units you were learning at university. So I was trying to bring as much real life scenario into the learning environment. Sort of join the dots up between various units that you were learning-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 4:24

Yeah-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 4:24

you were learning about Building Regulations you could, rather than learning about Part B on it's own, and fire, fire escape and all that is required with Part B of the Building Regulations, with fire safety - you could apply it to this particular project.

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 4:39

I think it brought everything together. I mean, it was a fun project, though. Yeah. I really enjoyed it, and I remember us all presenting at the end. I remember you being there along the way, at kind of every key moment. So I think it was, it helped with the kind of fundamental building blocks of Architectural Technology understanding-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 4:57

that's good-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 4:57

you know, a little bit of design, but mainly focused on the technical side of it. A lot of Building Regulations coming into it - stairs, things like that. You know, fire escapes, really key parts of that project-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 5:08

very, very vitally important for building safety, particularly it's happened since that time of course where we are now with the Building Safety Act of course-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 5:16

yes-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 5:17

I think that probably put all those coming through university at that point in time, in good stead, because it got them thinking about those things. Rather than looking at regulation and just taking it as red Asking the question, why are we doing this? Why do we need fire escapes? Why do we need these travel distances? What is this performance requirement needed for? All those things are really important when it comes to build and design.

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 5:41

Yeah-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 5:41

and there's a number of things I'm looking for in an individual, and it depends what their role might be, when they're working alongside myself. If it's somebody that's at - sort of - university level and they're going to graduate, I'm really looking for a growth mindset and a positive mindset, not a fixed mindset. You've got two two camps of people, you've either got the fixed mindsets, or you've got the growth mindsets, and you need fixed mindsets. They're sort of steady, Eddie, so to speak. They they do what they need to do, and they they're fairly fixed at it, and they'll stay at what they're doing and doing that really, really well. But you need the growth mindsets as well, because those are the ones that challenge, disrupt and that also get things moving forwards-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 6:21

Yeah. Maybe visionary in a way.

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 6:23

Yes, exactly.

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 6:24

So which one, which camp could you say I fall into-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 6:26

you're growth mindset. No doubt about that.

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 6:29

Okay. I mean, it's interesting you've said that because - I guess - I sometimes think I'm quite unemployable, sometimes, because I will go, go into places and disrupt things a little bit. And that's just because I feel as though I question things a lot, when I'm working in a practice. Why are we doing-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 6:45

that's a good thing-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 6:45

you know, why don't we do it like this? But I think sometimes that can be kind of chaotic, to - you know- a structure that's been there for a very long time. It's interesting that you look for people that have a growth mindset - but also there's kind of Steady Eddies - like you said-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 7:00

yeah, you need both. The fixed mindset anchor you down-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 7:03

yeah-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 7:04

whereas if everyone was a growth mindset,

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 7:06

it would be all over the place-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 7:07

all over the place. But equally, sometimes in our industry, we make the mistake of only employing based upon what somebody can do, but rather than who they naturally are. And those things holistically working together create a really good designer. Whether that be in Architectural Technology-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 7:24

Yeah-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 7:24

in our discipline at CIAT or whether that be in architecture, there's different biases with every individual, and it's not everybody is wired to be a growth mindset. Some people are so leaning towards the fixed mindset scale, that's what they'll be. And there's nothing wrong with that, that diversity is what makes a team great, really, rather than them all being the same.

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 7:46

I agree you can't have people doing the same things. I mean, the reason me and my business partner, Tim work so well together is because Tim has very different personality characteristics to me.

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 7:57

Yes.

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 7:58

So I'm very much, I would say, extroverted. I enjoy the marketing side of it. I enjoy speaking to clients, going to networking events, that kind of thing, and I get a lot of fulfillment out of that. But Tim, I would say, is more introverted, very detail orientated, and kind of implements the operation side of the business. Whereas I'm kind of doing the growing of the business. Yeah. But having those two together, complementing each other, has worked really well for us.

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 8:21

It's good-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 8:22

in terms of being able to grow and knowing that we can actually do the work.

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 8:25

In any business as you grow, it's working out where the gaps are and what the right skill set is to fulfill those gaps. But equally, what's the right personality to work alongside you? And I think in business, that's a really important thing to understand the shape of a team and how they perform together, because one rotten apple will collapse the whole thing. This is the reality of things, but a good collection of personalities working together, as well as having a good individual skillset, will work together as a team. And the power of teams is amazing. I do work on my own, of course, but I like to be able to bounce off other people and use their skillsets to tell me sometimes what I don't want to hear, but I need to hear, but equally, to give me the encouragement that I need at the right point in time as well.

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 9:06

I think people have their strengths. People have their weaknesses. You're never going to have the whole spectrum. And that's the you know, the beauty of business, beauty of life, really, like we want to work collaboratively as you say-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 9:16

Exactly, I'm glad you've used that word collaboratively. One of the things that was particularly important when we put out this project at Solent University in the second year, was making you collaborate. The idea of that project was trying to lead you towards a BIM level of working. So that's Building Information Modeling or Building Information Management, it's a whole cultural change in the way that we design buildings, of course, isn't it? And it means that we're collaborating as we design in real time with other key stakeholders. So for example, the Chartered Architectural Technologist will be designing it from a technical point of view and understanding that, but also from a conceptual point of view as well, if that's the setup. But then other key stakeholders such as Engineers(that's Structural Engineers, Mechanical and Electrical Engineers and Civil Engineers) are all feeding into that design. So the 3D tool that you draw with, is key to that. Making sure it's got the right, the right level of capability in order to be able to collaborate across the board. And I knew at that point in time, this was on the agenda in the UK, quite heavily, and it still is, of course, and it's become more and more commonplace now. That was really important to build that into the course itself, so that employability was there as you came out of university. I wanted to ensure-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 10:37

Yeah-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 10:38

students that had that skillset behind them and that mindset - because that mindset takes a long time to change in established industry - but it works a lot easier with disruptors coming into it-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 10:49

just on the subject of Solent University, I genuinely think, feel like I came out of that as a very employable individual at the time. I think the skillsets that I got through their Architectural Technology course- you know - it's a very kind of set path, you kind of know where you're going to be within the industry. It's not like - you know - going and doing - I don't know - English or Geography or something as a university degree, like, the good thing about Architectural Technology is, you've got a job-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 11:14

Yes, yeah, you're focused on a profession.

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 11:16

Yeah and there's a massive need for people within the industry. I mean, I know a lot of practices that are really struggling to hire. It's probably one of the most key points for people to find an industry like Architectural Technology, because there is so many jobs out there. And - you know - you could go into becoming an architect. Or you could go for Architectural Technology, but I think Architectural Technology was the right choice for me, and I wouldn't change that in terms of my mind and skillset, having- you know - design, but also real in-depth, technical knowledge-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 11:48

Yes-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 11:49

was more my focus, so . . . and the fact that - you know - you study for 3 years, you don't study for 7. So you get into industry and you have that practice experience a lot quicker, is something that I think - you know - was fundamental in allowing me to - kind of - set up my businesses as quickly as I did.

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 12:07

I'm really. I've been watching you with erm . . . stalking you in the background on LinkedIn and am really proud to see that you-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 12:14

Yeah, thank you.

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 12:15

you've continued to excel in your career, and I'm hoping that you're going to get yourself Chartered, because there's no point in going on this journey and not get yourself Chartered-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 12:24

Yeah I knew we were going to come onto that subject, yeah-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 12:26

But of course, you've come out of a university, one of many universities across the UK, and we have ones that are internationally based as well, that run an accredited degree program, accredited to the Chartered Institute of Architectural Technologists. Which is great news, especially if you do want to get Chartered, because what that then means is that the units that you take while you're at university are benchmarked against the Chartered Professional Standards, and that exempts you from having to do some of those completely from scratch when you get to become Chartered-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 12:58

Yeah, I have started to fill the forms out - I did start to fill out the forms when I was at Adam Architecture, and we'll come on to that in a minute - I think - our experience there. But I noticed that at the beginning, there was a massive part of it that you had to fill out if you weren't from an accredited course-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 13:12

Yes.

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 13:12

And I know some of the guys were really struggling with that because they didn't have that accreditation. And so having that was was really useful. I think-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 13:21

You've got all that foundational education in place and is recognized and, like I say, benchmarked. Whereas, if you're coming from a non-accredited degree,

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 13:29

Yeah-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 13:29

You've then got to build that picture-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 13:31

Yeah-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 13:31

and convince the panel that will be reviewing that application, in the first instance, that you are of the right standard to go for interview. The interview is a rubber stamp exercise, as long as you've never, if you haven't lied in the actual application process, the interviews are a walk in the park, you're just verifying-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 13:48

Okay,

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 13:48

What you've said about truth-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 13:49

Yeah-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 13:50

You know, that's the easy part-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 13:51

Yeah. Obviously you were instrumental in, in allowing me to get a place at Adam Architecture, and I really enjoyed my time there. I got some fantastic experience. I think it's, it gave me, again, kind of that fundamental understanding of technical drawing. And yeah, I originally worked on a big country house in Yorkshire. And yeah, it was, it was a fantastic project to work on. Did a lot of stone detailing, so got a lot of useful technical skills in terms of cornicing and - you know - surrounds and skirting boards and stuff like that. So having that knowledge of traditional materials and detailing, I think is was really great. I suppose the only thing that I found difficult and struggled with at Adam Architecture was the - kind of -corporate structure.

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 14:34

Yes.

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 14:35

because it's quite a big practice, and I don't think you can get away from that, working at a big practice, which is, you know, I think why, in the end, I did move on and kind of set up the two businesses. But, yeah, I had a really good experience there.

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 14:46

Yeah, it was then just under 20 years. So my experience was pretty good. But I reached the point in my life where I wanted to do something a bit different, because my specialisms were in very high-end residential, super-prime residential, and I was doing lots of those, one after another. And I love classical architecture, and I also love modernist architecture as well, and of course when you're working for a classically architectural practice, you have to fight the corner all the time for that style of architecture. And I think as time went on, I started falling out of love with classical architecture because of my day in, day out job. Now, ironically, I've fallen back in love with it, as a layperson, which is really lovely. So when I'm walking around towns and I'm looking up, I'm enjoying the classical architecture again, not because I necessarily want to create it anymore, but because I'm just enjoying the experience of it. I've still got some very good friends Adam Architecture, and I think it was not just the style of architecture, it was the people that kept me there so long in reality. But like anything in life, we go through seasons, and we sometimes need different things. So it's no reflection upon them as a practice or style of architecture. I just wanted something different for myself.

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 16:08

Yeah I remember you going through the the evolution of it, and - yeah- just before you were leaving, and the reasons why. But it's really interesting what you're saying about your interest in classical architecture. I kind of had the same thing. I loved it when I got there, then kind of fell out of love with it, because I did so many projects with it. Left. Started - you know - having quite an interest in modern architecture, but then- kind of - going full circle and realizing that, you know, there's great aspects of both,

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 16:36

Yeah, indeed and-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 16:37

I think I probably sit somewhere right in the middle. So, I really love using traditional materials, but I really like stripping back the details. So still having, you know, architraves and skirting boards and all of that stuff, but stripping back the real intricate details, but using traditional materials, and traditional methods of construction, I think is where I get the most enjoyment in design.

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 17:00

It's quite interesting and I also think that's a good way to learn, because as much as modern methods of construction are useful to know, I think if you know the foundations of where buildings come from, traditionally how it's built, and how it's fitted together, you always question what you're doing. What you're putting into any form of construction and understand what the key functions of any particular building. So it's almost foundational - I think - and classical architecture, for me, is foundational in the sense that - you know - what we see on buildings, and that what we class as classical buildings with columns and tablatures, which include the beams and everything, are representations of structure. If you understand those rhythms and how those work on a facade and why they are proportioned the way they are, then you've got a good inherent understanding of what key structure is. So that's what they represent. They got stylized as time goes on to become sometimes purely decorative, but they are still representative with the right proportions of structures formed out of stone.

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 18:08

Yeah, those like the triglyph, right? I remember learning that at Adam, that the triglyph is the end of a beam-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 18:14

yes, exactly-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 18:15

within the the architrave, yeah-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 18:17

you've got the column made up

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 18:18

free pre, sorry-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 18:19

the base, the shaft, the capital-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 18:21

yeah-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 18:22

and then above the capital you've got, you've got the beam, which is made up of the architrave, the free section, then the cornice, which sits above that. But all those things together, and that's why I used to get so uptight when I'd see designers take out one of those key elements, because that showed, when I say illiteracy, it showed ignorance, really, that the fact they didn't understand what those key elements represented, and by suddenly having a column with a cornice just shoved on the top of it and no beam would never work. You'd never build a building without a beam spanning between two columns, whether that be a steel beam with on two steel columns or whatever, it wouldn't physically work. So the moment these things are removed-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 19:06

it's a bit painful on the eyes-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 19:07

It's painful-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 19:08

you don't notice it-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 19:09

that's the pastiche. The pastiche is a poor copy-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 19:13

Yeah-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 19:13

of what once existed, and a poor copy is when you don't understand the reasons why something didn't exist. All those principles you can apply to any modern construction as well. You can free form design any any building, but if it can't hold itself up structurally, it's not going to be particularly useful to anybody, is it at the end of the day?

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 19:32

Yeah agree. I agree. I think even simplistically - you know - when you remove a skirting board and you put a shadow gap, these places must be a nightmare to live in. You kind of banging a hoover around, you're just going to destroy the shadow gap aren't you-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 19:46

Yeah, exactly-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 19:47

you've got to think simply, you know, what looks nice. But can I live here? Fundamentally? Is it going to be a nice place to live in? Because if you haven't got a skirting board, you know, there's a reason it's there.

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 19:57

The thing I like most about being a Chartered Architectural Technologist and Architectural Technology as a discipline is the very fact that we take that wide view, we're really interested in the free form shape of the building. How it works, the excitement you get from that, how that connects with the outside world, as well as the interior spaces. So we're not just looking at the built asset on its own, as a single form. We're thinking about how it interacts with its external space. We understand thermodynamics and how it works for the interior space of the building. How you might be in an urban environment, and that's a heat sink, and therefore the building's going to possibly overheat, and how we deal with all those things technologically, down to the last little detail. And I've always felt, and I think you're probably of the same vein, that if we're building our designs for real people, we're designing it from the users point of view backwards, and balancing that from the external view inwards. The two will meet and will produce really, really good buildings that are fit for now, but fit for the future as well, and will last the test of time,

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 21:00

Just to put a point on it. People want to live in beautiful places as well, though.

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 21:05

yes-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 21:05

you know - so you really do have to have both. You can't just think about function-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 21:11

agree-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 21:11

Function is - you know - fundamental to getting it right for the user. But people really do want to live in beautiful places. Like- you know - just walking down the streets of now, I'm living in Winchester. It's a really lovely place to live in. And then I think, in some of the more modern cities where - you know - places like where we're sat right now in Southampton, where the Blitz happened-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 21:31

yes-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 21:32

they've had to construct things very, very quickly. And I think unfortunately, a bit of the beauty was lost there. We've come to realize that now-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 21:38

I agree-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 21:39

you know, you really, really have to focus on both. It comes down to just mental wellbeing of people. You don't even realize how much is - kind of - is setting until you change the environment that you're living in, and you're maybe in a more architecturally beautiful place.

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 21:53

I agree with you to a certain extent. I think there's a way to go on that-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 21:56

yeah-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 21:57

I still think that the way that we're constrained by regulation, it doesn't always consider that beauty-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 22:04

no, I agree-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 22:05

along with functionality and the two are too often at odds with one another, particularly when it comes to Planning Policy here in the UK versus Building Regulations and just in the last couple weeks, I've, fed into the Future Home Standards Consultation. I responded to every 95 questions that they asked and one of the points I made was, if you put too much into regulation, it's too prescriptive. Are you forgetting the beauty side of things and I quoted back within the response the Housing Secretary's requirements for us to consider sense of place and beauty in what we design. So I think there's generally a growing appetite to balance both those things.

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 22:48

yeah-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 22:48

but I think, dare I say, government needs to catch up in the way that they think, rather than thinking in silos with the right regulation and consider these wider aspects. It's great they put a Consultation out, of course, because it gives us the opportunity to respond in that way and make them aware of these things. But I do hope they listen, that they don't put into the new Building Regulations for the Future Home Standards - which, for the benefit of public is - is our drive to net zero carbon in 2050 here in the UK, with all new build homes.

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 23:18

Yeah, yeah,

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 23:20

that they don't, they don't forget the beauty side of it and these other competing factors that we have across Local Planning Authorities. So that's a whole other podcast, and a whole other discussion-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 23:30

It is we could go on about that forever. I think the regulation side of things, yeah, I mean, just windows alone, trying to make a window look beautiful is becoming near on impossible now with the regulations, but we could go on forever, like you say.

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 23:43

I left Adam Architecture back in 2017 so it's coming up to-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 23:49

that was my graduation-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 23:50

Yeah, since your graduation. So it's a good, good number of years coming up towards a decade and a lot has happened since, actually, and it's been a really interesting journey. The year that I left Adam Architecture, I moved into becoming our 28th President at the institute course, and that was an incredible two years for me during my term. And three things I focused on there was to raise our identity, our presence and our growth. I nailed my colors to the mast, and I put down those three key areas because I knew they were all measurable. I knew where we started at the beginning of my presidency, and I knew where I ended, and I could demonstrate at the end of the presidency that all three of those areas had grown. That's the type of person I am. I'm quite process driven person.

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 24:36

I could see that in your career as well, with the International speaking that you've done as well. I think, kind of bringing Architectural Technology to the- kind of - global stage, if you like.

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 24:45

Yes, that was my plan and that's fed into my career quite successfully, to the point that without those two years, I wouldn't have had the contacts and the accessibility that I now currently have in my current role. So I'm gonna work back from my current role, I'm Churchill Retirement Living, who are a UK based developer of retirement properties, but a group of companies and working back before Churchill, I spent a couple of years doing similar to what I did at Adam Architecture. I went and worked for Ascot Design. Did a lot of high-end residential properties as well, but they also did a lot of work with developers, so built more normal stuff.

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 25:27

When you work at Adam Architecture, you're working with - you know - billionaires, people that you know, I would have never have come into contact with from my kind of background in life - super interesting. But, yeah, I think I had the appetite when I'd left to work with the general public-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 25:43

yes-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 25:43

like you said. Yeah, because I've wanted to work on buildings that I could see myself using-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 25:48

yeah exactly, and something I can connect with personally-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 25:51

Yeah-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 25:52

So yeah, we're talking blue chip clients and, like, I say, billionaires, so on and so forth. So I was working on projects, one off houses, anything from £1.5m - which would be at the lower end - right up to £65m values-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 26:07

yeah. I mean these figures are just insane aren't they-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 26:10

they are off the scale, they really are. So they're very it's a very different world-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 26:14

for sure-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 26:15

and it takes a lot of energy, and it takes an awful lot of resilience as well, which when you're younger, you have more of I generally find. So I remember during my year as President Elect that I'd started going around universities and transitioning from what I was doing at Solent University, which was doing this live-brief, to actually presenting to various universities the aspiration group, but encouraging during that presentation to apply for Student Awards as part of the AT Awards, which were really big thing. And I remember presenting to Solent University. I can't recall if you were in that presentation or not-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 26:58

no, I definitely was, and it was instrumental in me applying for that award. I've got to say, some of the lecturers that were there as well really pushed me, as a chap called Masoud (Dr Masoud Sajjadian FCIAT) who was a bit of a Mentor towards me-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 27:10

right. I remember him-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 27:11

within my studies, and also Sarah Radif(FCIAT) and Monkiz (Dr Monkiz Khasreen MCIAT). They really pushed us. You know, the people that had really put the effort in towards the end, they really wanted us to go for the Architectural Technology Award, and rightly so, because I did end up winning it that year, which was 2017. So again, it was one of those real kind of points in my early career that gave me a hell of a lot of confidence to think that, yes, I'd done the right thing. I really enjoy it, and I'm probably quite good at it, and that I can carry on doing it throughout my career. So thoroughly enjoyed the event as well. Gave me a lot of exposure, spoke to a lot of really interesting people on the day it's gone from my head, who the celebrity was that was there presenting it?

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 27:56

Erm Matt Alright-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 27:57

yeah, yes, yeah. That was really interesting, and it was and it was a really cool venue. Yeah, so I think great day. And, yeah, definitely something I would advise other - kind of - if anyone's listening to this podcast and is thinking about doing it, it's well worth applying for. And if you don't get it, maybe just go along for the day, because it's a great day as well.

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 28:17

It's still a great thing, isn't it. Even if you don't get the award, the very fact you've applied for the award means that you feel, that you're at a standard-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 28:23

Yeah-Yeah-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 28:24

and it's also a talking point when you're going to interview "Now, I went for this award. I didn't quite get it. This is what I presented" You've got an immediate talking point, a piece of portfolio that you can put forward to them. Because you've had to tell a story to put it forward for an award, you have to tell your story behind what that award is about. You can tell that same story interview. It's already pre-scripted for you-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 28:45

Yeah-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 28:45

rather than I've done this at university, I've done that at university, but I've got nothing that differentiates me from the rest of the sea or graduates that's coming out-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 28:53

Yeah-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 28:53

so it's all good. It always has been, as far as I see, and it can't do any harm.

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 28:58

Can't do any harm. And I think at the end of the day, all that's going to happen is your is that your work will become a bit more refined-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 29:05

yes-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 29:05

throughout that process of getting it ready for the Awards. So you'll end up with a better portfolio anyway, ready for interviews, like you said.

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 29:11

And even better still, when you smash it and get it-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 29:13

Yeah. Exactly, if you get it, yeah, it's well, well worth it, yeah. I think it, like I say it was really key, just for giving me confidence, and then, and then moving on from there, which I've already touched on, I think.

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 29:26

I think, from for me, what was the good thing about you winning that particular award, it affirmed the very fact that I'd been instrumental in getting you employed. We'd invested, at that point in time in the right person-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 29:37

yeah, yeah-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 29:39

Rather than, "Oh, we've invested in this person. I think they're good. . . " but actually going for an award affirmed that my decision was the right one. I don't always get my decisions right, I can assure you-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 29:50

I'm glad I made you proud. Alex.

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 29:52

Yeah, it's all good-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 29:54

I really am energized by what I'm doing right now. So there's a hell of a lot of things that I've got going on in any one day, and more so than I ever have in my life. But I think that makes me get up. You know, when that alarm clock goes off, it's like, why are you waking up? And whatever gives you fulfillment and energizes you, that's why. And there'll be certain things that I'm thinking about in the day, like this. For instance, I was really excited to get up and jump out of bed, coz I was like, this is gonna to be really exciting to do this today, and it's having the opportunity to do things like this that I never would have had, had I carried on the same career path. I think anyway. So I think it's been instrumental in kind of getting me to where I am.

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 30:33

You've two companies, haven't you? Tell tell me a little bit about those. I'm quite interested.

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 30:37

Yeah. So the first business that I set up was Incollective; which was basically your classic kind of architectural services practice focused at extensions and maybe one-off houses but for the general public, I would say - you know - it's still kind of big, expensive extensions, but people that you could see in - kind of - everyday life, if you like.

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 31:01

You're not talking £25-30m a time-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 31:05

Exactly. Just going back again, actually, when I was at Adam, Architecture and COVID happened.

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 31:11

Yes-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 31:12

I purchased a property in Southampton, and I ended up renovating and refurbishing that house entirely myself. So my Dad is one of those blokes from the 70s, from Manchester. He knows everything. Knows everything - you know - he can take his hand to plumbing. He can be an electrician. He can do plastering, because he's done up loads of houses himself. So-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 31:30

is he? Is he good at these?

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 31:32

Oh, no, he's good. He's good-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 31:33

or is he a bit of a dodgy tradesman-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 31:36

He's good. So he gave me the safety net to be able to have the confidence to take on that project, and it was a full back to brick renovation. And I think what a great thing about architectural technology is, is the technical skillset that I had. I could use that and implement that when I was refurbishing the house. And anyway, I documented that whole journey on Instagram, and at the time, people were on their phones a lot because it was COVID. Some people were at home, and I grew quite a substantial following on that Instagram account. And I actually got paid to do some collaborations on that account as well. So within that year, I started to - I guess, set up a side hustle - as you would call it-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 32:12

yes-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 32:13

and then through that and some of the extensions I was doing on the side, I was then able to - kind of - make the decision to quit my job at Adam Architecture and go full time into it, and they were very good about it. They did allow me to do some contract work with them at the beginning. So you've always got to have that conversation. I think, with the practice, if you're thinking about leaving. They probably would be open to allowing you to maybe contract out work to and that will give you, again, a bit of a safety net to be able to make that leap of faith - you know. And then I met a local developer in Portsmouth who did a lot of HMO properties, but on the high-end scale. So these are shared co-living spaces focused at professionals. Houses that you would live in after graduating university. you wanna stay in the city. You want to live in a social space, but you want your own ensuite in a nice, kind of high end room, but you share a - kind of - kitchen and dining area. So that model essentially works well in places like Southampton and Portsmouth, where you have high retention of professionals.

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 33:16

Yes-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 33:16

we did a lot of work in Portsmouth. We actually did about 60 projects in the space of a year-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 33:20

Wow-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 33:20

in first year. Which was amazing. Real kind of learning curve, and that scale of projects I'd never done before. So real management and operations kind of nightmare that we had to understand and implement a lot of tools to to get it to work - kind of - efficiently between the team. And then, yeah, the last couple of years have basically just been building on that, and taking that product nationally. So we did a marketing campaign, and we've worked in, probably close to 100 Local Councils now across the country, and working on HMOs-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 33:53

it's it's really grown hasn't it-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 33:54

Yeah, it's really grown. Yes-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 33:55

it's not a big team, is it?

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 33:57

No, it's not a big team. Yeah, it's literally, like I said, me, my business partner, his partner, and some contractors that we work with. But my goal, and Tim's goal, was never to build ourselves a corporate life again. So we never wanted to-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 34:09

You don't want to build an empire-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 34:11

yeah, we don't want an enterprise. I don't want loads of employees. I don't want that stress. The reason I quit my job in the first place was so that I could give myself the freedom and the autonomy to - you know - travel the world if I wanted to, and just work from my laptop. And we do have the opportunity to do that. Tim does a lot of traveling. He's just come back from Thailand with his partner, and the way that we've set up the business has allowed us to do that. It's the kind of Four Hour Work Week situation, but we're not, we're not working four hours a week, but-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 34:36

glad to hear that-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 34:37

It's, it's given us the opportunity to focus-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 34:40

You get a bit more freedom basically-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 34:42

got a bit more freedom, yeah.

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 34:43

So, how do I apply?

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 34:47

you need a job?

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 34:49

I like the whole idea of the freedom-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 34:51

yeah, yeah. But I just want to make it clear this is super achievable. Like you don't have to get loads of employees and set up this corporate structure in business, you can, quite literally be you and contractors and take on a lot of projects. Like we this year, we're set to probably do 150 HMOs nationally between a team of four of us. So-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 35:12

wow-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 35:13

you know, it's a lot of projects, but manageable, and if you use technology to help you, then-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 35:17

yeah, it's maximizing the use of that technology, isn't it?

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 35:20

Yeah, yeah. We use tons of technology. Like, I've always been a big implementer of kind of AI within the business. So basically, all of our leads come through our website now. So we've built up the SEO and the domain authority to have quite good authority for HMO Designers. So all of our leads come through there. They sign up onto a sign up form, that sign up form goes into a AI program that we've built. That will then create an entire proposal for them, and then it will send me an email, and I look through that email and then send it out to the client. So, basically it automates the entire client qualification process-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 35:54

That's good-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 35:55

So it's, it's making, yeah, that kind of trajectory of a client contacting us, to them being signed on, a lot quicker, in kind of expediting that process, which has been really useful for us.

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 36:05

That sounds great. That's one of the things that can kill a business, isn't it? There if there's a time lag between inquiry coming in and actually getting them signed up-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 36:12

100%

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 36:13

So, in between my role at Ascot Design and where I currently am, I was a Strutt & Parker who are part of BNP Paribas Real Estate, very, very corporate. And it wasn't really - I wasn't temperamentally suited to that at all. It was too corporate for me. So many processes. I spent as much time training for things such as money laundering, GDPR, terrorism, all that sort of stuff, which you associate with the bank side of things, as I did, actually doing my job-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 36:42

over regulated-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 36:43

Yeah, over regulated, for sure. And that was during COVID, while I was stuck at home all the time as well-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 36:48

Yeah-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 36:49

and not in a good mental place at all. My father, my late father, was very, very ill indeed, and I wasn't able to see him for a period during that-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 36:57

sorry to hear that -

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 36:58

journey. So all those things culminating together directed me. Now I look back in hindsight to where I am now, I can share that I'm Group Head of Technical at Churchill Retirement Living, which is really exciting, and it sounds very corporate, but it's not, because it's still owned by family and they're in every day, which is really nice-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 37:18

That's really nice, yeah, to have the real people on the ground, yeah, working with the team-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 37:22

and they care, they care. I think for me, I took the role on, not just because the role and what we build, but because Clinton interviewed me, and you could see they care about what they build, and they care about the end user immensely. And, you know, I think some developers get a bad press that they're just building it for money. Of course, you gotta make money as a business. otherwise there's no point having a business, you can't run at a loss. That's-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 37:46

yeah, risk versus reward as well. I think there's such massive risks in development. There's a million and one things you gotta think about you're building something physical in a world which wants to kill you the whole time. So like, you know, there's massive risk to doing a development project and and the reward should, erm, should, you know, reflect that

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 38:05

I agree. So it's nice to be working there and be in a position where I can influence and put out through social media and stuff, some of the great things that we're doing in in the industry from a developer's point of view. Which counters some of what you see on media, generally in the news, and the way that this current government(April 2024) - I'm not saying anything untoward here but this is fact - has demonized developers for the last decade, you know. And it's not, it's just not true.

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 38:33

Yeah, I think just on the development side of things. As a business, we're starting to get into that a little bit ourselves as well, so we're actually purchasing properties now through joint ventures, with clients. So they will, you know, put the finance side of it in. We'll, do the sourcing, the architecture, management of the build, and then even manage the tenants-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 38:52

and you get a chunk of the return-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 38:54

and essentially, yeah, it's a 50/50, profit share. So working out that fee structure and everything has been really interesting, but we're just kind of going into that now. We've, we've just purchased two properties, one in Eastleigh, one in Gosport, and the Eastleigh one completes next week. So-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 39:07

Wow. So really diversifying-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 39:09

Diversifying, yeah. I mean, I think a lot of businesses just making sure that you've got your fingers in a lot of pies, because if you're forward thinking, you not only need the reoccurring revenue, but you sometimes need the big - kind of - lumps of money coming in, and you need the cash flow, and you need lots of different aspects. So diversifying, I think, is, is really key to making sure that we can maintain the growth that we're on at the moment-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 39:33

Yes. Cash flow is king.

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 39:35

Cash is king as they say.

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 39:36

Cash in the bank is king. That's the reality of things.

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 39:39

Yeah, yeah.

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 39:40

Obviously getting the invoices out on time and all that side of things when in consultancy is really important. It means nothing unless there actually gets a return on the actual invoice itself.

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 39:48

Yeah, I agree. There's so many different businesses here - in this co- working space that we're currently sat in at the moment - Yeah, it's just, it's good to see how other people kind of go about things and how other industries work. and I've never had that experience, because I've always been AT.

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 40:03

For me that's one of the beauties, and one of the strongest things that you get from being in physical contact with people.

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 40:11

Yeah,

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 40:11

the thing that concerns me, having come out of COVID is this, this trend there-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 40:16

work from home-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 40:17

refused to come into work. Refused to interact with anybody else. I can't get my head around that. Now, I'm not saying you have to be in five days a week,

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 40:25

yeah-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 40:25

anymore, but the value of actually being around people is huge. And we wouldn't have this conversation if we were texting each other . It wouldn't be the same conversation-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 40:34

No, definitely wouldn't-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 40:35

even if it was on Teams. You know-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 40:36

it's the live feedback. It's literally the live feedback of looking at someone's face-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 40:40

yes, yeah, the body language-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 40:42

yeah and the body language. A Team's call, it only goes so far, so much is lost-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 40:47

Yes, and it has a place.

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 40:47

And I think I was actually quite a big advocate of work from home for a while when I worked at a corporate job. But since setting up my own practice and working from home, I literally worked from home on my own for about a year-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 40:59

right-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 41:00

And I literally - kind of - started to go insane, just because, like, you don't have that human interaction, and I don't think you realize how essential that is to our lives, that collaboration.

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 41:11

I mean you may as well give, give our profession away, if you want to just work from home exclusively all the time, because eventually automation will take over, and there'll be no difference between the two. The human interaction is what gives us a difference and an edge over AI, in my opinion, and these other things that are coming to play. And don't get me wrong, I'm not resisting AI, but I think there's a place for everything. I don't think anyone is the be all and end all in these things. So I think coming out of this a bit more flexibility in the way that people work a bit more hybrid work, and you've said that you've set up your practice so you can work anywhere, really. It's great, because people's lives aren't as 9-5 as they used to be. That's not the world that we live in, and the culture that we live in nowadays. But equally, I think there needs to be a level of accountability, and you don't get so much accountability if you work from home, in the end. I can't believe that you can remain 100% motivated at home all the time. You need other people to motivate you, to praise you, to pick up on some of the great things you're doing, but also to tell you off when you're not doing things so well. And those things are all healthy for growth.

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 42:14

It's kind of the efficient, like how efficient you work as well. I just think I'm so much better when I'm in the office, when you're at home, because it's where you're living, it's where you're cooking, it's where you know your pet is, or whatever that is, it's there's so many distractions.

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 42:29

I'm sure there's different experiences for different people because no two people, are the same. And some people thrive on it.

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 42:35

Yeah.

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 42:35

but in our industry, with what we do, how we design buildings, how we're supposed to collaborate to produce a better, holistic design. I can't fathom how working on your own, exclusively all the time, will actually make our society a better place, when it comes to the built environment.

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 42:54

You don't think any amount of BIM will solve that?

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 42:56

I think BIM is great, and it allows you to work and collaborate remotely with one another.

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 43:01

Yeah, yeah.

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 43:01

But I still think good design is when you can stress test it with other people, physically in a ring. Yeah, I remember when I was involved more heavily with Solent University. The reason I did that is, is I was wanted to invest in young people. When you invest in people, something surprising usually comes out of it, and something good comes out of it.

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 43:21

Yeah, I totally agree. And from a kind of Mentees perspective, you noticing something in me when I was at Solent University, and then, you know, ultimately, getting me that job at Adam Architecture, I think just gave me a lot, a lot of confidence that, you know, I was doing the right thing, and this was the industry for me. It's definitely good to have those key people within your life. I think that notice something within you to spark that kind of ambition.

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 43:46

It's like a cycle, isn't it? A 360 cycle. You invest time in people, they invest time back, and that relationship is what actually provides a great resource to practice. But equally, I don't like using the word human resource or staff, I prefer team or our people, because you don't achieve anything in our industry - particularly in design or good design - unless you can lean on others and you work together. I think it's really important, and we've got things to learn from each other. I've got things to say, teach you as a Mentor, but then you've got different ways and different - a more modern way of thinking compared to how I came through the education system - which then challenges that thought process and and works in both directions. So it's never a one way thing and we have learnt from each other.

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 44:35

Yeah. Like, it couldn't be, could it? It's not how you know, fundamentally, relationships work-

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 44:40

no precisely.

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 44:41

So you know, we're both humans. Like, like you say it's a kind of two way street, and I certainly implement things that I've learned from you. And it's nice to hear that some of the stuff that I'm doing makes you think about what you're doing within your own career as well. I guess what kind of drew me towards being interested in your career, was the fact that - you know - you were quite successful, if you don't mind me saying. Like you'd been in the industry, you'd been doing lots of really amazing things, like your Presidency and as part of the CIAT team. I think - you know - purely selfish reasons from me it's It was nice to form a relationship with somebody who, one, I got on with, but two, could help me throughout my career.

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 45:21

I think, from my point of view, I've always liked hard grafters, so I'm not sure why, like ha, ha, no I'm joking - no, but no, I could see that in you. And my late father always said to me, you get out of life, what you put into it.

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 45:34

Yeah.

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 45:34

there's no free ride. And I think I saw that in you. There'd be some students you go in and they're just there for having a laugh - they haven't matured well enough. You knew what you wanted to do at university. You weren't wasting people's time. You certainly weren't wasting your own. And I like that quality in an individual, as a person, as a person. There's a lot of that in your generation, dare I say in the younger generation coming through? But there's also a lot of good there's a lot of good people that aren't like that, and you're one of them.

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 46:03

I think that that stereotype of millennials can be actually quite detrimental to that generation. But it definitely does exist.

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 46:11

It it does and it's more-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 46:12

the working from home and everything that has fed into that. I think probably the most harmful thing that can happen is people not recognizing when someone's a grafter - like you said - like giving them the opportunities to be able to grow is really what matters. And I think that is - kind of - the opportunity that you allowed me to have by helping me to get my first job and things like that, and just noticing something in me. If you have those really key points in your life, I think that makes a massive difference moving forward - you know - throughout your career and what decisions and how much confidence you have, and you know all of that just feeds in.

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 46:47

One of the key points, now I cast my mind back to our earlier relationship and your journey then to Adam Architecture, is when I saw you working at St Mary's Stadium in Southampton, and you were there serving. That proved to me and in my subconscious, that you were the person I thought you were, not just from presenting at university in our conversations there - which were always cohesive - you'd always done the work that you needed to do by the time I got in. I don't know if you'd done that five o'clock that morning, but you'd always done it. Whereas there were others on that course that had literally done way too little too late-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 47:27

Yeah.

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 47:28

at certain in hand in time. You You always get that bandwidth, don't you?

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 47:32

Yeah, it's like you touched on I really knew that I wanted it, you know, if you really want something, you put the work in. And, yeah, I think, I think I kind of struggled at college just before, a little bit, and then got to university, really landed on my feet. Because, again, it's a kind of autonomy thing. I was in control.

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 47:48

In control. You found what you wanted to do-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 47:50

Yeah. I found what I wanted to do, you know, I had control over time that I was spending on things.

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 47:56

Yes.

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 47:57

when I could go for a break - you know - just the little things. And I think I enjoyed university a lot more than I did college.

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 48:02

It was a good experience then?

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 48:03

It was a good experience. Yeah, definitely, really enjoyed the AT course. Got nothing but good things to say about it. Let's not leave it so long. Next time.

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 48:09

Definite.

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 48:10

It'd be great to to meet up a little bit more regularly, and I do want to have more involvement with CIAT, whatever that is. I haven't fully - kind of - thought that out yet, but I'm definitely going to do my Chartership, and I think it'd be good to maybe be involved on some kind of Regional basis.

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 48:26

Sounds good-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 48:26

but yeah, we'll see.

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 48:27

We can keep talking as friends, but if I can help in any way with that journey-

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 48:32

yeah, thank you.

Alex Naraian PPCIAT MCIAT: 48:33

Then call upon me, and I will help.

Ed Kercher CIAT affiliate: 48:36

That would be awesome.

CIAT: 48:38

Thank you to Ed and Alex for reflecting on their rewarding journeys so far through Architectural Technology. Don't forget to subscribe and share. Until the next time! The contents and views expressed by individuals in the Where it's AT podcast are their own, and do not necessarily represent the views of the companies they work for or of the Host. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered as advice.