Ann Vanner FCIAT: 0:03

By the time you're 80 almost 17 years of your life you've spent inside. It's really important to get the inside of a space as healthy as it possibly can be. So we have a real important role to play in sort of creating healthy environments that allow people not just to survive, allow them to thrive.

CIAT: 0:24

Welcome to Where it's AT - the Architectural Technology podcast from CIAT, that uses technology, to talk Architectural Technology, for technologists. In this episode, we asked Ann Vanner FCIAT and Roger Hines MCIAT to discuss their shared passion and unique approach to creating healthier buildings. And to imagine ways in which the industry can respond to the challenge.

Ann Vanner FCIAT: 0:50

I truly believe that we can heal the built environment. I suppose when I look at it, from the point of view of - the sort of - health and wellbeing but also what we learned from the medical environment, and how we might actually also heal the built environment. So heal the buildings as well.

Roger Hines MCIAT: 1:08

We have a joint passion for designing buildings that help give back to people and the environment. How we actually design and put buildings together and what excites us the most, is being able to give people the opportunity to live in homes that heal, and give back and cover all those elements that you've just mentioned. And I suppose it's our job as Architectural Technologists, to include all those elements in a way that's accessible to everybody. So if you're talking about biophilia, my understanding Ann is that it is, it's the humans innate desire to connect with nature and how we perceive our surrounding environments. And we crave those elements more than anything. And it's not just about a connection with nature, and landscape, it's also about materiality and being able to have a surrounding that helps you-

Ann Vanner FCIAT: 2:06

It's a surrounding allows you to thrive.

Roger Hines MCIAT: 2:09

Yeah, absolutely. And I think for us, it's a key aspect. We thread that concept of biophilia through everything we do.

Ann Vanner FCIAT: 2:15

Well biophilia for me means how we bring the outdoors inside. And we can do that in a number of ways. Whether that's directly trying to get nature into the building- so maybe that's just through views and things like that - or it's also about how we use natural elements within the building. So whether that's natural materials or forms that replicate nature, when we can't actually bring nature directly into the building. We've come from nature, and therefore we're, we are part of nature. And so we're the sorts of things that they talk about, is that, you know, we see more green colors than anything else. And our eyes are more comfortable when we look at horizons, as opposed to sort of vertical things because of the savannas where humans came from. And that makes me then think about actually, that we need to design- not just for the humours - but actually a bit more for our senses. Whether that's designing for our ears, designing for touch, designing for our eyes, designing for smell. Not that I advocate that we go around - sort of - licking buildings and things like that, but that we design, we think about those things when we start with a site analysis. So there's the big picture - you know - where are we in the world and things like that, but also think about it from the other way around? What's happening almost on a cellular level, and what's happening to our eyes, what's happening to our ears, when we're on a - doing a site analysis. Or when we're going into an existing building and trying to imagine how these spaces might change?

Roger Hines MCIAT: 3:41

Could you give a simple example of something very easy to incorporate within the design?

Ann Vanner FCIAT: 3:46

I don't think it's an easy answer for a start. And I think it requires us to use all our senses. And I'm thinking about, sort of, what you were doing the other day, when you went out on-site to get some soil samples. Our approach to how we place buildings, or think about where extensions go, starts from the moment we - sort of - arrive on a site and possibly even before that, sort of how do we get to that site? Is that site on top of a hill? What is the weather going to be doing? When we get there we are using all our senses to understand what that site can offer and give us. So we're looking around. We are thinking about where the wind's coming from. We are using our nose, we're sort of smelling you know, does the space smell damp. We're using our ears, you know, is the space where it's a bit noisier and things like that. And then as we get closer and closer to the site, we're constantly absorbing that information, and then like you did the other day with a soil sample, it's actually getting almost then down to the nano scale - you know - what is the soil structure doing there? And what will that allow in terms of plants and flora and fauna to grow in those spaces? It's a long journey. And then I can take it to that idea of that building in layers, where we then start thinking about how we go through the various elements of the building. Constantly reminding ourselves about the end user and how - whatever we do - has to have a positive impact on that end user.

Roger Hines MCIAT: 5:17

So when we're talking about VOCs. What is a VOC Ann?

Ann Vanner FCIAT: 5:21

Volatile Organic Compounds, and they're basically sort of tiny particles that float around in the air. And these are man-made things that we've created; whether it's through paints through finishes, to materials carpets, on sofas, fire retardants, and things like that. And they are constantly off gassing and as a result, we breathe them in through our nose. That's what we're talking about, when we talk about biophilia and designing for our senses, really thinking about things on a, on a cellular level. We're breathing these things. And these things are having a negative impact on our bodies internally. And there's research from sort of firefighters and things like that, the impact it has on people and the more we then try and super insulate buildings - because we're all worried about sort of the cost of living - we're not ventilating spaces properly. So these indoor spaces are becoming more and more toxic, and bear in mind that we're spending about 90% of our time inside and this is where our role as Architectural Technologists come in. If we're involved in thinking about the details, and the materials that we're putting in there, we have a responsibility to ensure that we are putting healthy and sustainable materials in those spaces, and creating the environments that people themselves can adapt. Whether that's about how they ventilate spaces, how they access light, and things like that. So we have a real important role to play in- sort of - creating healthy environments that allow people not just to survive, allow them to thrive. What was the thing that you say about plants?

Roger Hines MCIAT: 6:52

Yeah, so right plant, right place. Right building, right place. It all goes back to that initial site analysis, doesn't it. It's that being able to orientate your building in a way, that you will get clean fresh air coming through a window rather than polluted air. Or if there is a road, or any sorts of pollution being able to filter that through plants or trees or any other means we can and I think being an Architectural Technologist is far more than just thinking about the details of the building, it goes beyond that. It's the things that will effect the building. I think for me, you know, my driving passion is conntecting nature with the built environment and understanding how those two elements come together, and I think what we do is quite unique in the fact that yes we do think from the detail first but we're also going from the soil, to the plant, to the wind, to the window and how that window opens, how that window's ventilated, how that ventilates the room, and how that room ventilates the house. It's a unique thing- I think - we do, and I think - you know - just on like the VOCs it's a dangerous thing when a house is trying to kill ya. And I don't think enough people pay attention to it. You know the things we are bringing into our house, things like dirty candles and just got them burning away with closed windows, these things needs to be thought about don't they

Ann Vanner FCIAT: 8:09

We have a role to play in not only designing and helping in the construction, but also thinking about maintenance, the long term, how long those buildings are going to be there and then thinking about how someone's going to maintain that. And if you're then requiring a space that has to be heavily cleaned. Or, that you can't open windows to get ventilation through. We're causing ourselves a real big problem. So we're thinking about stopping the house trying to kill you in the first place. But then also arming people with a series of strategies that they can adopt and take onboard that allows them to sort of take control and fight back in terms of you know, how they can protect themselves from these buildings that are trying to kill ya. Do you have any thoughts on sort of an element of the building that could really help address some of the sorts of things that we've been

Roger Hines MCIAT: 8:56

I think it would have to be the window talking about? because - it's alright to talk about passive doorway, and passive energies and passive methods of heating, cooling, ventilating a building. So if we're talking about ventilation go, you know, we need the mechanical heat element. Oh, that's fine. But we need energy to run that. So the most energy efficient way would be to open a window and I don't think, I don't think windows have been addressed enough. Or they don't play a big enough role in the ventilation and I know people consider them. But I do think they're almost an afterthought-

Ann Vanner FCIAT: 9:29

Windows didn't you know, that they've often to be described as the eyes of the building. They bring the light in, they allow us from inside outside to have the views and if they are openable, and we've thought about what they're opening onto, so we're not opening onto roads - you know - they can be part of the sort of strategy that we need to employ to deal with ventilation, but we often don't really think about how we're going to open windows. I'm not particularly tall, but even I have to stand on a stool in my kitchen to open the windows. So we need to think about window design and operability. I've got elderly parents - you know - their hands don't do what they used to do. So they don't open windows because the it's just difficult and awkward.

Roger Hines MCIAT: 10:13

My wife, she hates the kitchen window. Purely for the fact I mean, I'm really tall and really long and she's the opposite. And like you say, it's a classic thing, you know, there's a kitchen sink there and then there's a windowsill there, and then there's a window there, and then it's a top opener. And I just think there's just kind of thought and it's become somewhat of a habit to place a window in that location. And, oh, it has to be a top opener, and, you know, please just think about these things.

Ann Vanner FCIAT: 10:43

Yeah - I think we also need to think about how we design for our ears a little bit better. As Architects and Architectural Technologists, we're very visual people. I think, generally, we see the environment through our eyes. And fortunately for us, we can close our eyes so if it's the space that we don't like we can close our eyes, but we can't close our ears. And we don't design our buildings for our ears, for the acoustic issues, we can never lock it out. We are living in a noisier world - you know - we're asking people to live closer to motorways and railways and things like that. We can design out these issues, that's I think what I'm trying to say, is we can design out these issues, whether it's noise or sort of heat and ventilation. But yeah, ears, I think we need to design more for our ears as well.

Roger Hines MCIAT: 11:26

It's big issue, isn't it noise, neighbour noise, road noise. No I'm a 100% with you there, as architects and architectural technologists and designers, and anybody else really involved in creating a building, you know, there's so many obstacles we come up against in terms of design, and well, let's call them constraints. You know, and every constraint is an opportunity. But sometimes when we're trying to align our building with certain planning regulations, and the way that the street front may look, or how it's presumed to act, I think our hands are tied sometimes, in the way that we would deflect sound or try and mitigate sound. But again, I suppose that comes back down to the finer detail into the building and being able to have a building that looks a certain way, but performs differently. And if we've got a road facing building, and, you know, we've got a lot of road noise it's getting the detail of the window, right. So yeah, I'm sorry, I'm a bit fixated on the window at the moment.

Ann Vanner FCIAT: 12:28

How do we use technology, though, to sort of design for these. One of the things that I've noticed - I suppose it's over the last 10 years since we've had smartphones - is how much data and information we have at our fingertips. So I know, on my phone, I have a little decibel counter. So I can record how noisy environments are. My phone tells me if I've been in a noisy environment, or if I've had my headphones on too much. You can read sorts of temperature and things like that. We have a little monitor in the office here now, that tells us what the temperature is and how many particulates there are in the air and things like that. So how we can use technology to understand what we're dealing with, and then be able to address that and then ensure that we're designing for it. We had a interesting conversation the other day about an existing home, it's a beautiful home, there's it's not a space adaptation that they're looking for, but they're trying to superproof their home so that it is energy efficient, and it is as healthy as possible. And the use of technology to help us understand what we are dealing with, but then how we might make the changes to make it even healthier for those people.

Roger Hines MCIAT: 13:42

Yeah, I remember the conversation, I think we we came to the realization that we would have to create a virtual design construction model of the house, and really detail down pretty much every element of it. You know, really detail that building, which allows us to understand that - you know - right down to the nuts and bolts, really. And then using that building in various simulations to run - you know - heat tests, energy tests, sound tests, wind tests, to try and nail as much as we can. But I suppose the real test is post Occupancy Evaluation, isn't it - you know - it's that do what we think is right to do, by what we know. But then test and retest

Ann Vanner FCIAT: 14:23

And then make the amendments and adjustments as we, as they sort of carry on living in those spaces.

Roger Hines MCIAT: 14:29

Once a solution's apparent, you know, as long as it's documented and shared, I think that's that's a great thing that everybody should be doing. I think that's that's part of our mission, isn't it? You know, and part of us sharing our journey is - you know - if we find something out it's on LinkedIn before it goes anywhere else, so that everybody else knows and that's what we - you know, - that's what we aim to do is educate the world really. But yeah no, I think the way we use technology is great, you know, we go into the virtual reality stuff, we we go in to test live. It is quite hard to test the sound though isn't it?

Ann Vanner FCIAT: 15:03

Yeah, yeah. But going back to the house because one of the things that we were talking about, was actually sort of really understanding the building and I sort of - not automatically - but just went, well, we're gonna have to create a Revit model. And then you start having the conversation around, sort of actually, maybe a SketchUp model would be easy, because it would allow us to model each of the sorts of elements the windows, or the chimney spaces, or the porch area, in a little bit more detail, so that when we go in to test those spaces, we can respond, we can add to that model easier than the Revit.

Roger Hines MCIAT: 15:36

We could do all that in Revit, I remember the conversation, and to do it in Revit we'd be creating components. We'd have to do very detailed models of everything, which is quite time consuming in Revit. In SketchUp, I suppose it gives us more flexibility to make changes on the fly and really be able to dig down. I mean, I love SketchUp for that mean, I love Revit, I love both of them. For me, SketchUp would be something I would use for that plus, you know, it's slots straight into the Passivhaus Energy System, which is great. Whereas you know, if we're build it in Revit, we've then got to send it out in SketchUp, and then import. So SketchUp is a fantastic tool for doing this to existing buildings and it allows us to cope with those finer details for the windows and the walls, and the core pins, and everything else. So yeah, on that particular project, I think you're right, I think I said we should use SketchUp, which is controversial, because I'm 100% Revit

Ann Vanner FCIAT: 16:32

We like controversy, we embrace that as well. But that ties it to that thing about - sort of - hyperlocalized architecture that- you know -when we look at a window - banging on about windows - when we look at a window, there's a whole sort of micro-climate and understanding of how that window is functioning on that elevation where it might get the sun, or it might not get the sun, and the impact that that then has externally. So you know, the window finishes and the dressing. But it also internally, how that person is then using that window in that space. So for example, in a kitchen, whether it's for ventilation; in a sitting room, whether it's for looking out on the garden, but it allows us that idea of sort of hyperlocalized architecture to detail to the enth degree almost- sort of - around that window for that very specific space and area that we're - sort of - dealing with.

Roger Hines MCIAT: 17:28

Well, sometimes I think once you're in inside certain softwares I think, you know, you can kind of forget about the detail, and you kind of give it - I call it a broad brushstroke. You know, it's just, here you go, here's your plant, here's your window. But yeah, you're right, it needs to be hyper focused sometime - let's go back to the window - you know, a window's such a great thing, you know, it can operate like a door, it can, you know, it can it can open sideways, or upwards, downwards, slide. It's a pretty unique piece of architecture, if I'm honest, we could probably do a whole PhD on windows. But yeah, so I think you're totally right, being able to get down, really knuckle down to a window, understand everything about that window. I think that in itself is a great thing. And there's so many tools to do that. But for me in SketchUp does that a bit easier probably gonna get-

Ann Vanner FCIAT: 18:16

So then we can start to - sort of - construction detailing. At the end the day, the ideal thing for a building would be almost one continuous sort of layer of skin that's around the building. That deals with all the sort of air tightness, and deals with waterproofing and things like that. But the moment we then whack a hole in it - so put a window in it - we've created ourselves a whole heap of problems that we need to detail around. And again, I don't think we celebrate those enough. You know, those sorts of various junctions, where are we positioning a window within a wall, and the implications that that has on how we close the cavities where the water's going, where the insulation is going. When we will look at the Passivhaus - sort of approach - the issue isn't so much around glass - I think we've pushed the technology with glass. It's not so much around the frame; it's all those junctions between those various elements. And again, these are those things that when a building goes wrong, it tends not go wrong on the big scale, it tends to go wrong on the local scale. On the scale - you know, sort of - on the parts the building that we touch. Which is why what we do as Architectural Technologists, it's so important to how people perceive the quality, the enjoyment of a building, because it's all those bits that we interact with as humans. It's at that eye level, it's where we touch and interact with a building. What are your thoughts on construction detailing?

Roger Hines MCIAT: 19:42

Construction detailing - where do I start. As someone who's worked on site as a builder - a former bricklayer and stone masonry builder- I would say that construction detailing would be better across the industry. And I'm gonna pinch one of your sayings - you know - it's a Friday afternoon, it's absolutely lashing it down, it's blowing a gale everyone wants to go to the pub and someone's given me a 2D black and white drawing that says red line denotes air tight membrane. Okay. You know, I think construction detailing could be improved, definitely and I think people read things differently. I mean, I've seen a huge variety of ways that information is presented - you know - some people present a construction detail in the form of text-

Ann Vanner FCIAT: 20:38

Oh dear-

Roger Hines MCIAT: 20:39

Yeah, that's not great. Again a normal standard, 1 - 5 2D detail - you know - I can quite easily understand them. I'm aware there is people that do struggle. And then you get the 3D sort of details and now, for me, I think if you can give a small booklet, to a five year old child, and they can build the car out of Lego, then we should be able to do something very similar for construction industry that - you know - we can, we can explain complicated things in a simple manner. And again, it's that complexity comes from simplicity- sort of thing - being able to give some information to individuals and no matter what condition they're working in, they can understand it. So maybe the text, a 2D and a 3D all on one sheet-

Ann Vanner FCIAT: 21:33

Yeah maybe it all has to come hand in hand, doesn't it so that people from different backgrounds and different ways of experiencing the world can gain the information that they actually need. So maybe it is, written for those people who enjoy reading things. As Dyslexics here, that's not me-

Roger Hines MCIAT: 21:49

it's not me-

Ann Vanner FCIAT: 21:50

As someone who- you know - can see the world

Roger Hines MCIAT: 21:50

I think it's such a broad spectrum, isn't it three dimensionally, construction detail that sits on a computer screen in Revit makes a whole heap of sense for me, trying to think of a couple of builders on projects we've got but I do appreciate that there are people out there that, when they look at plans and drawings, it makes absolutely no sense to them. But then sort of two dimensional as well, that sort of - I suppose more traditional- but also not to take away from going on at the moment, and, you know, they'll ask for a drawing, people who understand what they're doing - that, you know, just a little bit of guidance is enough for them to, to do what is actually needed. What about the technology on-site in terms of iPads and things like that. I went to site the other day, and they still had lots of paper drawings all over the place with- you know - stains from coffee cups and things like that. and we'll send a drawing over. You presume that that's going to get printed out, then you turn up on-site and the reading the drawing off the smartphone? It's unbelievable really. If the industry is doing that, then do we have an obligation to address it? Should our drawings match the screen of a smartphone rather than the standard A1, A2, A3-

Ann Vanner FCIAT: 23:03

Ooo now there's an interesting conversation around sort of paper sizes, and then ratios of screens and things like that-

Roger Hines MCIAT: 23:10

We talk about what we do as in terms of being regenerative and health and wellbeing and I suppose then we send the drawing off and ask someone to print it.

Ann Vanner FCIAT: 23:21

Yeah. But then also construction details - at the end of the day- as we don't build them, we are asking other people to build them. And we're sort of advocating that the detail is really important to how a building functions at the end of it once had been built - and then in five years time in 10 years time. We really need the contractors on-side, in terms of making sure that they build what we're asking them to. Or that we designed a detail, that they can actually build and that they're on board with. I think we need to bring the contractors and the design team much closer together.

Roger Hines MCIAT: 23:57

Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, it's one thing we advocate a lot, isn't it - you know - try and get the contractor in early doors. We talk about construction methodology - you know - before we go into that detailed design stage. It's absolutely imperative, really that the contractor is involved in that. To know what skill level they have and their ability to build the things that we're going to propose. And if there's training needed - you know - you get that beforehand, and also for them to give their insight on buildability. You know, they have great ideas. They've built hundreds of things, thousands sometimes, and you know the insight they have to us I think it should definitely not go ignored and I think sometimes it does, but usually they're valid points because it's been tried and tested.

Ann Vanner FCIAT: 24:48

It's sometimes the journey we take from meeting, going on having a site visit, meeting a client developing the brief, working with the client, getting them - sort of - onboard in terms of their aspirations. Our aspirations in terms of education, and then clients and buying into the idea of sort of, not just creating beautiful buildings, but buildings that have a positive impact on their health and wellbeing. And then, once so many of the decisions have been made, we invite the contractor in, and then it almost feels a bit like. . . it's almost a bit rude, I think sometimes for the contractors that we need to actually be bringing them in much earlier on in the conversation. So that they're buying into those ideas and philosophies and ethoses. So yeah, there's there's almost a whole way of rethinking how we work so that we ensure that we get the quality of buildings that we're - sort of - talking about in terms of their health and wellbeing. The contractor, and the way we communicate with them, I think is key to ensuring we get that.

Roger Hines MCIAT: 25:47

We go right back to that very beginning, you know, right plant, right place. it's - you know - the gardener would know that.

Ann Vanner FCIAT: 25:54

Yeah,

Roger Hines MCIAT: 25:55

You know, so we should expect the builder to also, or the contractor to be in on that journey with us right from the beginning, and get them heavily invested in creating a building that is highly efficient, it performs well, and it's regenerative. We need to, I think, almost not re-educate but guide these people down the road so that they understand that these things that they are building, are going to be here for a long, long time. And if we can encourage them to invest more emotionally into the things that they're building, then ultimately we will end up with better buildings.

CIAT: 26:30

You're listening to Where it's AT - the Architectural Technology podcast from CIAT.

Ann Vanner FCIAT: 26:35

So we talk about sort of having healthy environments for people to live in. I also think we need to think about how we heal the built environment. So the buildings themselves, but also some of the things that we do when we are constructing buildings. We've talked about this before. So, we've got - you know - sick building syndrome, or concrete cancer and things like that. We're already beginning to use sort of some of their medical analogies when we're talking about the built environment, I think it was Martin Brown, who said "Housing is for Health and Hospitals are for repair." So that idea that our built environment has to be super healthy, to ensure that we aren't letting people go into hospital - you know - poor air and air quality and the impact that that has on people with asthma and coughs and things like that. These are things that we can design out. But we need to ensure that we have a really healthy built environment to do that. There is something we can learn from what is happening in the medical environment, whether that's even about - just sort of- how we triage patients, could we triage buildings? So you know, a building comes forward with a bit of an issue, trying to understand what's happening holistically with the whole building, and then address the whole thing and think well, actually, there are things that we need to address straightaway, and then there are things that we might need to deal with over 3 years or 5 years. But I also think about it from the point of view of contractors and things like that. We need to ensure that we have healthy individuals who are helping build these buildings for us. I get really upset when someone says a temporary site - it's temporary for us and that project, but for those brickies, builders, joiners and things like that, it's not a temporary environment for them to work in. They move from one site to another site, where is their toilet facilities? Where can they eat, have warm drinks, have conversations that might be uncomfortable. There's so much that we can look at there. Looking at what's happening in the NHS and how they deal with things, and then bringing that into the built environment. Again, there's another PhD in there and that actually might be my PhD. There you go.

Roger Hines MCIAT: 28:43

If we look at it from medical point of view, and we're potentially the doctors of the building, you know, it's our job to make sure that building's well, and we've had lots of training to understand how to how to give that building what it needs, and how to nurture that building and how to make sure we get the best out of it. Yet so many times we come across clients to try and diagnose a problem, but inevitably end up making things worse.

Ann Vanner FCIAT: 29:06

Yeah

Roger Hines MCIAT: 29:07

How do you think we could help people to understand that it's best to talk to us, like they would a doctor, before they try and prescribe something for their own house?

Ann Vanner FCIAT: 29:15

It's that thing about sort of listening and then taking onboard, what they're sort of saying, and where they think they've, they've got their information, but then - sort of - coming back at it from, I suppose that ability to see it on a much bigger scale so much more holistically, but also to see it in much more sort of detail and really understand why that is an issue for them. It is about listening and about sort of communication. But also I don't know how we deal with misinformation about the built environment. You know, governments are struggling to deal with that on a national scale. So maybe we do need think about a resource that is reliable for people to go to, but there are some of those already beginning to appear. But also, I think that uniqueness, there are millions of terraced houses around here in the northwest of England where we are. But each one of those will respond to the environment completely differently. If the front door is on a south facing, it will shrink in the summer, when it dries out, and it'll get wet in the winter. The way people use their buildings is completely unique. So just because someone down the road has done something doesn't mean to say it's going to work on your building. The way you, people, use their buildings, where they are sat, how they are used, family members and things. It has such a big impact. So again, that I suppose almost sell it as that, that sort of uniqueness - it's your building, it's completely unique to you, and how you use those spaces.

Roger Hines MCIAT: 30:45

Yeah, and I suppose we can touch base on almost like technology we use in the office, even though it's very small, the little IKEA monitor that we have for the VOCs, the temperature, the humidity, I suppose if people had instruments like that within the house, they could be able to understand in more detail what's actually happening within their homes. I know that you run - well - an experiment in your house didn't you, with sensors all the way around it.

Ann Vanner FCIAT: 31:08

It was unbelievable. It was probably about two years ago, where with a company in the northeast of Lancashire. We sensored my house, we had sensors in the kitchen, in my study. We had a sensor outside, and we had a sensor in our bathroom. Now these sensors were measuring co2, temperature, light, humidity, motion, and sound but the amount of information that we were able to generate and the things that we were sort of seeing, there were certain things that we knew we would see. I live on a road, which is close to a very big secondary school. So between - sort of - 08.30 and 09.30, the co2 levels increase, because the amount of traffic that goes past. I knew that but to actually sort of see it on little graph was fascinating. Sound - sort of - people coming in. But then there were other things that I hadn't really picked up on. So I have a gas cooker and the moment I switched my gas hobs on, it caused spikes in particulates, because it basically encouraged the movement - there was the warm air from the gas hob was encouraging the movement of particles round the kitchen. When people in the bathroom were spraying deodorants and things like that, we were picking up that information. And that makes you then think well actually, let's not have spray deodorant, let's have roll-on deodorant. So yes, it was absolutely fascinating and the amount of data and how simple it really was, as well. Like I say, these monitors that we had - granted, the one outside had to be fastened to the wall - but the others they sat on a shelf. They were small white boxes, we had a cloud way of sort of generating the data, I could go in and see the data - sort of - it every 15 minutes. And there was just so much data that we were able to see. So the stuff that we're already doing that we just need to, that's there. And I have now teeny tiny humidity sensors, they're smaller than a matchbox nowadays. And they sit all over the house, I'm less worried about heat, and how warm a building is. I'm more interested in the humidity in the building. So if it's somewhere between 60 and 80, things are good. It goes above 80 and I can see- almost within 24 hours - where I'm going to start getting a little small patches of mold in the bathroom and things like that. And that reminds me then I need to open a window and like I sort of say, when we talked before - what we can use our iPhones for - my health app on my phone tells me if I've been in a loud environment, so thinking again about our ears. There's masses

Roger Hines MCIAT: 33:39

A lot of people presume, well if I'm that we can do. having a new house built this will all be thought about but this - all these technologies - can be retrofitted to existing properties. And we have such a huge supply of existing homes that need care and attention and- I suppose - if we could encourage more people to actually monitor their environments, this would help create a better argument for more retrofits rather than, you know, let's let's everyone buy a brand new house and to leave the old terraced house to drop two bits. Which is what seems to happen, isn't it. I think through monitoring and understanding, like you said, picking up on the humidity levels and the particulates and understanding where all those elements are coming from - you know - that then gives us insight. Well it gives the industry insight into what we need to be addressing, You know, we have a huge, huge, huge number of homes that they're just going to waste really. They're there, thery're decaying and all we really need to do is get in there and have the opportunity to retrofit them to a standard where they could actually - well, I think, you know - a lot of all those houses are probably better built than most modern homes, if I'm honest.

Ann Vanner FCIAT: 34:48

We can't build our way out of the current ecological crisis that we are facing. We've got to tackle the existing buildings that we've already got. And whether that's about retrofitting buildings; so really understanding how that building is functioning, the fact that it might not have been maintained or heated for a number of years. So understand what it's doing now. Well, it's that sort of, again, that medical analogy, what's it doing now? What's its heart rate doing? You know, where do we need to sort of invest some money and some time to sort of rejuvenate it, so that it has - it's an asset that can be used for someone else. Or if we can't use it again, then let's harvest the building. Again, you know, if it's if it's past a point of no return, why are we sending all those really good materials to landfill sites. We should be taking those buildings down - you know - that whole concept, it's a concept that I've heard about 'urban mining'. That we actually don't need to take anything new out of the ground. We have enough of the materials already in the built environment. Yeah, retrofitting. I mean, there's, there's just so much scope in terms of what we could and should be doing with that. And there's some really good things that are already happening. So the Passivhaus and the EnerPHit approach. The AECB, with some really good examples of where people are doing some amazing, amazing things. So we have a little monitor in the office that measures the particulates and the temperature and things like that. And IKEA has always fascinated me as, as a concept. Their packages were always designed to fit to the back of a Volvo. Where do we think where the industry could go with offsite manufacturing? And where do Architectural Technologists fit into that? And can that play into the conversation around health and wellbeing as well.

Roger Hines MCIAT: 36:45

Offsite construction I think is a massive thing, and it's not utilized enough. I'm not still 100% sure about an off the shelf house, that would address every need of every site. Although I do think you could analyze a site, and then design a home and have it constructed offsite and delivered to site.

Ann Vanner FCIAT: 37:09

Sort of a panel that you could use in London, Manchester and Edinburgh. But you could go on-site, and then they could make a panel that's bespoke to the climate that we've got here in the Northwest or to-

Roger Hines MCIAT: 37:21

Yes, yeah, panels that are responsive to the climate, almost vernacular, in effect - you know - the, it's got to match the locality. It's got to match the weather. It's got to perform on so many different parts. So it's got to perform in so many different arenas. That one wall panel it would have to function from - like you say - from the South to the North, but understanding that there has to be alterations along the way. I suppose that's where your Architectural Technologist comes in, you know, that local, hyperlocal Architectural Technologist understands that area. You know, you might have an off-site construction being done in London but you've got an Architectural Technologist in Newcastle that's talking to them and understanding the climate and how - you know - the humidity levels are different, and the winds are stronger, and all those different elements. As we move forward I think Architectural Technology plays a massive role in communicating with all these different people, in all these different sectors. It's it's such a vital role. It's the wall construction, it's a window construction, it's a door construction. It's making sure the thresholds, right. It's there's so many areas where an Architectural Technologist needs to be employed within a building, I think, I think to move forward in a world where we did offsite construction, would be great. But ultimately, I think that should be steered by Architectural Technologists.

Ann Vanner FCIAT: 38:46

That's it, we will need homes. We all need at places where we can be educated. Where we go to work. Where we go and have food and things like that. We're missing, I think, as someone who's come from - well I describe myself as a recovering academic at the moment - someone who's come from an academic background back into practice, that we do need to entice the younger generation into thinking about Architectural Technology as a profession, or as a route to go into, because the scope is just, it's just phenomenal. Whether that's about material science, whether that's the sort of artistry of it, and things like that, there is - I think - there's a really bright future for -And I think they're also going to solve some of the problems as well that we've created. I have faith in the younger generation.

Roger Hines MCIAT: 39:31

Absolutely, and I think Architectural Technology is the way forward. I think understanding how buildings perform, before how they look, is so vital - you know - Architectural Technologists will design a world that is sustainable and regenerative because we can come at it from a detail first approach. It's about performance. It's very similar to - you know - I always use the car analogy don't I. We buy cars on performance. Well, that's how we should buy houses.

Ann Vanner FCIAT: 40:01

That was interesting, because you mentioned that the other day and I thought it was really interesting - when you're sort of saying about the car thing - about that sort of little bit of banter in the pub, and things like that, how well is your car performing, Go on you-

Roger Hines MCIAT: 40:15

You know, you're you're in, you're in the pub with your mates and my car does so many to the gallon, and oh he's got so many horsepower. Why can't we do that we homes? You know, how many kilowatts per hour is your house generating? Or, you know-

Ann Vanner FCIAT: 40:29

What have you recycled-

Roger Hines MCIAT: 40:32

How much money did you save this month on your electricity bill? It should be that. We should have the same banter about housing as we do about cars. But it's a really bizarre thing, isn't it? That we all want a beautiful car, but at the foremost of our minds is performance - you know - yes, that car can get me from A to B. Can it get me there efficiently? You know, for the petrol heads out there, it might be like "How quick can you get me there?" But when it comes to homes, it's just how many bedrooms has it got? Does it have a front and back garden? And which way does the garden face? And that's it, it's pretty much where it starts and stops. You know, we should be really deep diving down and going "The house is amazing""How much does it cost to run the house per year?" All right, okay, and "How can I adapt that house?" Or "What other performance options are available on that house?" Just like we do cars, you know, we get extras on cars? Why can't we have extras on houses?

Ann Vanner FCIAT: 41:22

Yeah, and you could tie that into almost, or start to begin to think about it from a financial model. My sister lives in Switzerland, and they have private health insurance, because everyone hasto have that. But there are incentives. So if they've been out for a walk, she gets to log it on her an app, and that means that her premiums come down a bit. Could we not do something that for houses in terms of - you know- how much water you've recycled. How much energy you've saved, it brings down your premiums on your house insurance.

Roger Hines MCIAT: 41:51

Ooo, I like that. I like that. I like that. Your interest rate is tied to the performance of your -

Ann Vanner FCIAT: 41:57

interest rate even better-

Roger Hines MCIAT: 42:00

Imagine a world where that happens. That would be great.

Ann Vanner FCIAT: 42:03

That really would get people to focus on - sort of, you know - have they ventilated the building? Have they cleaned the gutters out? Have they considered or thought about whether damp is coming through, the materials that they're using, the air quality in that space and things like that. It would - you know - really focus people. And then you might even get the contractors and the big sorts of house builders to get involved in that as well.

Roger Hines MCIAT: 42:26

Absolutely. I mean, I know they try and make an effort now but I think it could be a lot better. You know, and going back to like, the, the optional extras, you know what, why aren't we you know, you can add solar panels or there doesn't seem to be anything. Or- you know - if you want, you can have a better kitchen, but you can't have better windows - what's all that about - back to windows. We're back to windows, but you can see my point. You know, we can have all the things that look nice, but all the things that perform, or are going to make our lives better, they're just not an option. It's like this is what you're getting- a box with four walls, a roof. It's gotta meet building regs. That's That's it?

Ann Vanner FCIAT: 43:08

Is there a bright future for the built environment or for Architectural Technologists in that space?

Roger Hines MCIAT: 43:14

Yes. As long as his people willing to challenge the norm, there will always be a bright future.

Ann Vanner FCIAT: 43:20

Of course, there's a bright future. The sun will always shine tomorrow. And once we understand that, that nature will keep doing what it needs to do. And as long as we align ourselves with that, then yes, there will be a bright future. The sun will provide the heat, it will give us light and as long as we've orientated our buildings, we thought about the windows. We've understood a tree can provide so much, or that our buildings need to behave a little bit like trees, then yes, the sun will shine tomorrow will have a bright future and as long as we've thought about where the buildings go, everything will be okay.

Roger Hines MCIAT: 43:53

Perfect.

CIAT: 43:56

You've been listening to the Where it's AT podcast from CIAT. Our thanks to Ann and Roger for sharing how they and Architectural Technology are playing their part in healing the built environment. Don't forget to subscribe and share and until the next time. The contents and views expressed by individuals in the Where it's AT podcast are their own, and do not necessarily represent the views of the companies they work for or of the Host. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered as advice.